00:00:00 --- log: started haskell/02.01.14 00:08:42 --- join: dennisb (~dennis@as2-4-3.an.g.bonet.se) joined #haskell 00:20:04 --- join: shapr (~user@195.156.199.178) joined #haskell 00:22:36 --- join: julien (~julien@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #haskell 00:22:52 hi all 00:22:56 hi julien 00:22:58 what's up? 00:23:22 nothing special 00:23:54 Heffalump helped me figure out QuickCheck yesterday 00:24:15 it's for testing functions 00:24:17 interesting stuff 00:24:18 what is QuickCheck ? 00:24:46 the QuickCheck approach really shows how Haskell approaches programming from the mathematical perspective 00:26:04 is it an algorithme ? 00:26:45 kind of 00:26:55 you tell it the property to 'prove' for your code 00:27:10 and the types your code can take, and then it generates X random cases of input 00:28:27 do you have bits of code about that ? 00:28:46 not right here, but the ICFP paper about QuickCheck is very nifty 00:28:59 * shapr looks for the url 00:30:01 http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~rjmh/QuickCheck/ 00:30:08 k 00:30:14 the manual is disappointing, but the ICFP paper is cool 00:35:48 One argument to use haskell at work :-) 00:35:53 heck yeah 00:54:36 --- join: teek (teemu@k72.viikki.hoasnet.fi) joined #haskell 00:54:42 * teek is away: Odd. I've something to do. 01:57:25 --- quit: julien (Remote closed the connection) 02:06:44 --- join: julien (~julien@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #haskell 03:25:25 --- quit: teek ("Coffee break") 04:22:36 http://www.volker-wysk.de/mysql-hs/index.html 04:23:14 Haskell MySQL interface 04:28:20 --- part: shapr left #haskell 04:28:23 --- join: shapr (~user@195.156.199.178) joined #haskell 04:28:26 cool, MySQL 04:28:55 i am going to hack that to make a Haskell calls SWI-Prolog 04:29:35 nifty 04:29:42 is there already a prolog mysql interface? 04:29:50 yes 04:30:09 but its only to mySQL OR MSSQL 04:30:19 not crossoplatform 04:31:05 my work commisioned me to spend a few days with Swi-Prolog to Java to add Java<->Any DB 04:31:28 * <-> Java anytyhing is pretty powerfull 04:31:41 sicne java can arbitrate conversions in them 04:31:53 err btween two *'s 04:31:57 who do you work for? 04:32:13 a university research company 04:32:18 I wish I could persuade my work to let me do some Haskell 04:32:24 I think I'd enjoy that 04:32:29 we specialize in defense dept applications 04:32:34 oh 04:32:34 wow 04:32:46 I bet I'd love to read your project list 04:33:22 i can show you tweo i work on (actually the only one working on :( ) 04:33:35 yah sure! 04:33:38 so irc keeps me less lonely 04:33:42 I know about the massive inference engine 04:33:51 dmiles: don't you work with anyone else? or only by yourself? 04:34:30 http://reliant.teknowledge.com/CPR/ http://reliant.teknowledge.com/RKF/ 04:34:38 everyone else left 04:34:43 why? 04:34:43 --- join: bsh (~me@c40380.blktn1.nsw.optusnet.com.au) joined #haskell 04:35:04 --- quit: bsh () 04:35:04 my projecrt mananfger is too demanding i guess 04:35:46 2 have left becasue i work 24/7 and they say it makes them look lazy to him 04:36:15 but now i have a new helper .. who is a c++ guy.. i dont know what to think 04:36:44 at least he wont mess up my java and prolog parts of cvs ;P 04:37:33 HPKB -> CRP -> RKF -> DAML now 04:37:40 err CPR 04:37:49 you notice they all work off each other 04:38:35 actually CPR2 is more realivant 04:38:44 asll off base url 04:38:52 those are what the projects are 04:39:18 fun stuff 04:39:29 Is RKF focussing on biological weapons? 04:39:53 just database to wherehouse human knowledge like CYC 04:40:11 not targeted towards any final use case 04:40:14 --- join: Vutr__ (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 04:40:43 dmiles: I hope you're paid more than $60,000 USD per year 04:40:47 you deserve it 04:41:00 a little more stiull under $100 04:41:12 about inbetween to be exact 04:41:13 $80,000 ? 04:41:16 hehe 04:41:17 cool :) 04:41:28 I get USD $36,000 04:41:33 per year 04:41:38 buty that is not much money for it.. compared to insane wages other people make 04:41:50 and yours is livable 04:42:05 mine is surplus 04:42:52 some people in the industry make $140,000 04:43:05 I'd like to make more money 04:43:15 but I doubt it will happen where I live. 04:43:26 and money really isn't that important to me 04:43:32 knowledge is 04:44:03 yeah exactly 04:44:10 .. to me the mmore tools i can make, the better 04:44:14 yup 04:44:28 for me it's understanding I focus on 04:44:32 I want to understand it all 04:44:48 i am working on mergingg some of the work into a online text advanture mud.. 04:44:55 but there's a lot of stuff in the document about BW 04:44:56 for example, reading about the functional programming language Joy made many things about both Haskell and procedural programming come clear to me 04:45:02 BW? 04:45:09 oh 04:45:09 Biological Weapons 04:45:10 bio 04:45:12 I see 04:45:13 scary stuff 04:45:44 jewel, mainly gives scenario cases.. it was funded via fear of Bw ;P .. but goes much deeper 04:45:49 --- nick: Vutr__ -> Vutral 04:46:28 it looks like a very ambitious project 04:46:47 so for example right now homeland security me fiund research.. but the researchers are not digging ort care to dig thru peoples trash cans 04:47:10 but we still mayuse it as examples 04:47:24 Anthrax Bacillus Expert E just relocated from University F in City G to University H in city I where Doomsday Cult J is also located. Can any associations be made between E and J, and what associations should analysts seek? 04:47:41 Does this mean that the intelligence people are watching people like this "expert E"? 04:48:40 possibly.. but i dont deal in 'spook' activities 04:48:56 i just care about making the data coolate 04:49:07 err colate 04:49:13 scary stuff 04:49:25 i see more application in onluine roleplaying gqames 04:49:32 did you do any textbook evaluations? 04:49:34 I'd like to feed in Bill Gates and the Halloween documents 04:49:52 dmiles: what rpg applications? 04:50:05 but your employers aren't interested in rpgs? 04:50:28 will you be releasing your code as lgpl? 04:50:35 one is this.. http://logicmoo.sourceforge.net/ <- its very old.. take MS COM/ActiveX and replace with java 04:50:42 yes 04:50:46 spiffy 04:51:02 the data the gov uses of course is not lgpl ;: 04:51:08 but the engines will be 04:51:17 no surprise about govt data 04:51:22 I hope I'm not in their data 04:51:23 re dmiles 04:51:24 then we corner thwe market for "who to fund" research 04:51:29 how goes the battle? 04:51:33 good! 04:51:36 xbill: we're winning! 04:51:42 i found some mistakes 04:51:56 i am allowiung it to searcgh for skolems... 04:52:01 dmiles: you don't worry about being the creator of 'big brother' tools? 04:52:09 ionstead it never should serach.. only give 04:52:20 oic 04:52:24 so all rules with skoklems in antecedant are being diabled 04:52:54 however skelems are valid constraints.. since they unify with rules that give them 04:53:29 so i was able to sut search space down by 50% .. speed up 33% by not using lists 04:53:42 that kicks ass 04:53:56 but now 'packaging' it up and finding bugs 04:54:02 Mercury code runs etc.? 04:54:14 not yet investigated it further ;< 04:54:25 been having too much low hanguiing fruit 04:54:35 which is stuill a good thing 04:54:51 and i have not doene anything that cuts mercury out 04:55:17 i need to make a merk call/1 from java interface 04:55:31 i need to see a native prolog interpretor written in merc 04:55:35 that would kicjk ass 04:56:01 then i want to specialize backwards 04:56:39 thats probly the quickest path to solving my probelems 04:57:10 is that a possible .m program? 04:57:25 prolog_interp.m :) 04:57:26 probably, not sure 04:57:39 prolog_interp.m is quite possible. 04:58:16 thats something i should send to the list.. 04:58:25 is a requesty to see something like it 04:59:31 what is mercury? 05:00:08 its a very good declaritive/fucntional language to C generrator 05:00:27 looks a bit like prolog 05:00:57 adds some features that make your code seem more manangable as well 05:01:24 ig. adds some packaging features 05:01:41 what makes it so fast? 05:02:00 meanly by forcing you into datatype boxes 05:02:10 and good code geenration 05:02:37 takes a functional programmer and makes them go from edenbrogh prolog to turbo prolog 05:02:55 turbo prolog is an old 'typed' prolog 05:03:22 that comes on 2 5.25" disks for a 386 05:03:44 hehe 05:04:03 but since its so fast and scaled up (mercury) you have to love it 05:04:13 after Haskell 05:04:17 I'll learn it 05:04:42 are there already SUO-IEEE libs for Haskell? 05:05:03 hrrm needs to be! 05:05:06 The compiler's type, mode and determinacy checkers have together prevented several hundred bugs in the compiler itself. 05:05:09 you should write some 05:05:15 I don't know what hte last two are 05:05:54 i would love to see suo-ieee language impleentation in haskell 05:06:04 dmiles: currently I'm going back and forth in the Thompson book till I understand what it has to say 05:06:19 and hanging out in the "Learn Haskell" areas 05:06:27 like here 05:06:50 hehe.. i hang here becasue xbill answers my questions.. and i want to learn Haskell ;P 05:06:55 dmiles: Haskell is pretty =) 05:07:07 xbill: have you seen Joy? 05:07:24 I had this functional programming epiphany in the last four days... 05:07:33 in Haskell, the space is pretty much an operator 05:07:38 it means function application 05:07:54 in Joy, the space is the same as . in Haskell 05:07:58 function concatenation 05:08:42 suddenly I got this big lightbulb over my head as I realized that every language has to have these kinds of built-in ideas about how the world works 05:09:25 I asked a friend of mine about the equivalent stuff in the procedural world, he pointed out how Smalltalk and Self have the single call type 'message' no matter what they're addressing, data or method 05:09:50 and he mentioned that K and J use monadic and dyadic operators 05:10:00 (not that I have a clue what that one means) 05:10:21 ok, I'm done with todays randomly interesting exposition. 05:11:29 any comments or responses? similar or opposite thoughts? 05:12:08 yeah messaging stuff its a start towards a desing that bolsters awarness of agent oreineted programming (AO) as welol as OO 05:12:20 desing? 05:12:27 designing 05:12:30 ah 05:13:09 I just hadn't yet noticed that *every* language has these built-in assumptions 05:13:28 I'm beginning to realize that all of these structures are conventions, not basic rules about the world. 05:14:05 true 05:14:34 for example, non-preemptive threads can be implemented as coroutines with continuations 05:15:07 they are conventions true 05:15:08 so it seems a distruibuted computing system is somehow a final goal 05:15:09 so call stacks and functions returning are conventions 05:15:26 and I'd like to play outside the box 05:15:36 but it's not always easy to find tools that let me 05:16:16 shapr: imagine a language where a queueing discipline is used for procedure activation instead of a stack discipline. =) 05:16:46 how is that different from coroutines? 05:16:51 * shapr thinks 05:17:17 queueing discipline == scheduler I think 05:17:19 shapr: very 05:17:29 procedure activation == function calls? 05:17:35 shapr: yes 05:17:48 stack discipline == functions being required to both return and to unwind the stack 05:17:50 I think 05:18:25 if you use coroutines to implement that, you end up with a tree of calls I think 05:18:40 each coroutine is the equivalent of an application 05:18:49 shapr: it's how you search the tree 05:19:00 a scheduled tree? 05:19:18 I can only think of coroutines that each use a stack discipline 05:19:27 hm 05:19:28 cool 05:19:46 a queueing discipline would let you do the software equivalent of clockless logic I think 05:20:13 shapr: stack-based == DFS 05:20:45 DFS == deterministic finite state automata? 05:20:57 shapr: of course, you have to be able to issue a call and not wait for it to finish for this to be useful... 05:21:05 that's not too hard 05:21:10 shapr: Depth First Searth 05:21:15 oh 05:21:17 Search 05:21:24 shapr: think prolog 05:21:31 I don't know prolog 05:21:37 but I understand your DFS description 05:21:39 you can do it in Haskell too 05:21:43 that's a nifty way of looking at it 05:21:48 very nifty 05:22:03 you can basically schedule which reductions to do on which parts of the graph 05:22:28 you use terms that are unfamilar to me 05:22:29 but Haskell is already lazy so there is no advantage 05:22:55 I think I see what you're saying 05:27:31 Prolog has an execution model where this makes sense. 05:31:29 i once found a book that explians how to take a normal prolog and convert it out to a parallel system 05:32:33 it genrates multiple files that are run simulatani\ously 05:33:09 swi-prolog uis mnow ready wityh its threading system to run such code in tandem inside one engine 05:38:25 nice 05:38:59 what's the relationship 'tween Mercury and Prolog? 05:40:31 Mercury is a strongly typed strongly moded Prolog with type classes. 05:45:51 does that include backwards compatibility to Prolog, or some kind of emulation? 05:49:19 not much backward compatibility but some, Prolog-like syntax anyway 07:30:32 --- join: teek (teemu@k72.viikki.hoasnet.fi) joined #haskell 08:01:50 --- quit: julien (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 08:01:50 --- quit: xbill (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 08:01:50 --- 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08:19:18 --- quit: julien ("Client Exiting") 08:37:28 --- quit: shapr ("hometime") 08:45:19 --- part: teek left #haskell 09:04:37 --- quit: smkl (Remote closed the connection) 09:05:06 --- join: smkl (~sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi) joined #haskell 10:21:26 --- join: kepler (~kepler@adsl-81-164-221.asm.bellsouth.net) joined #haskell 10:30:40 --- quit: Vutral (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:30:57 --- join: Vutral (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 10:31:42 --- quit: Vutral (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:31:58 --- join: Vutral (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 10:33:11 --- quit: Vutral (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:33:17 --- join: Vutral (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 10:42:24 --- join: shapr (~user@p-c2fbab4f.easy.inet.fi) joined #haskell 11:05:04 --- log: started haskell/02.01.14 11:05:04 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #haskell 11:05:04 --- topic: 'Functional Programming, that's the opposite of Dysfunctional Programming (like VB) | we be loggin' http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/ | welcome to the Haskell Dojo | jewel, julien, and shapr are up to white belt!' 11:05:04 --- topic: set by shapr on [Mon Jan 07 10:42:01 2002] 11:05:04 --- names: list (clog xbill dmiles pHa jlb Heffalump jewel smkl kepler Vutral shapr dennisb) 11:06:30 re clog ;) 11:10:08 --- quit: Vutral (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:10:30 --- join: Vutral (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 11:11:17 --- quit: Vutral (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:14:16 --- join: Vutra_ (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 11:14:48 --- quit: Vutra_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:15:01 --- join: Vutra_ (~ss@212.169.154.209) joined #haskell 11:30:52 --- join: nefph (~alife@sense-sea-MegaSub-2-56.oz.net) joined #haskell 11:30:52 --- quit: dmiles (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:31:39 --- nick: nefph -> dmiles 13:16:13 wheee 14:34:15 --- join: nodie 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